Curse

Kusandaa · Jan 06, 2008, 04:54 PM // 16:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shanaeri Rynale

I agree it is just another build, and yes it can be fun. Thing is it's insidious. People see it being effective and an easy way to win, so they run it, others then see the same and they run it. Sooner or later it's now the dominant build. We know it happens as we've seen it time and time again in HA and GvG.

An analogy maybe. While it may be ok to run super polluting cars doing 1 mpg sooner or later there is a price to pay. In this(GW) case teams being made that are pretty much only ursan in certain areas of the game(and spreading). Now if you want to run 1 mpg car I cant stop you, but the effects on the environment affect us all. Same with Ursan.

People complain about the HA meta, the GvG meta, the PvE meta... this game is made of metas. I've learned that if you want to want to stop playing the "meta" at some point (or at least variations in the metas - such as a N/R b/p amongst the R/X b/p's), play with people who have a similar mindset as yours. And that's partially why I love my alliance - even though we're not high-end PvE, we don't believe in the holy trinity. We've all had to learn playing uncommon but effective builds, and we love it. Back when we were doing ToPK daily, they wouldn't run if I wasn't puller; and they knew I'd be N/R.

Just showing how there ARE variations in the meta/cookie cutter itself, at one point where there's a line whether it is cookie cutter or not. For the heck of it we've tried a X/R b/p ToPK run. We had a E/R, a Mo/R, a N/R (might have had a R/Rt in there for FW duration purpose only, if not it was another E/R), rest were normal professions (N/Mo MM, N/Rt orders, Mo/X healer). We did our average time. It's cookie cutter if you think of it (we spam barrage!) but when you think again, we were running with uncommon builds. Builds that might have been laughed at, and we did our average alliance run time (an hour).

I'll give that Ursan sets EVERYONE with same skills once you're in bear mode, however. Ursan is a meta in itself, you can't change the skills once you're in Ursan mode. And it DOES make a difference.

Quote:

You might get SR benefits, but whats the primary attribute that effects how much health and damage you do when you click the yellow button?

Just my 2p

I agree. Norn rank.

Same as me playing another build: let's take the N/R b/p I've been talking about for a while. I'm a necromancer with a bow. I'm not a ranger. I have to meet my bow requirement yet have a decent Barrage damage (11 Marks) and have a reason to be a N/R instead of R/N (Curses: 11+3+1). Then enough SR to keep the build running without energy problems (6+1 is enough) and the remaining in a speed boost (Wilderness Survival: 2), so I choose Storm Chaser because it has the longest duration (25% speed boost is enough, 10 seconds is alright).

The thing is that in Ursan I have my Norn attribute only that determines my damage, health, armor. Outside Ursan, I behave like a normal necromancer. As a N/R, I'm a necromancer playing a ranger build. I'm not a ranger.

I'm a necromancer. Nothing's gonna change that. I just have the choice of playing different builds.

RhanoctJocosa · Jan 06, 2008, 04:56 PM // 16:56

Why has this gone for 14 pages? UB is a ridiculously stupid skill just because of how it functions and should be deleted from the game. The effect it has on the economy is minimal. People who play balanced builds, by PvE standards, learn a lot more than they do running Ursan. The people justifying Ursan's existance as a skill are either bad at GW or simply rely on it because they don't have the time/patience/whatever to play "proper" builds, which is understandable. Btw, the first time I saw someone asking for a R7+ Norn Ursan I found it so very, very ironic.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kusandaa

People complain about the HA meta, the GvG meta, the PvE meta... this game is made of metas. I've learned that if you want to want to stop playing the "meta" at some point (or at least variations in the metas - such as a N/R b/p amongst the R/X b/p's), play with people who have a similar mindset as yours. And that's partially why I love my alliance - even though we're not high-end PvE, we don't believe in the holy trinity. We've all had to learn playing uncommon but effective builds, and we love it. Back when we were doing ToPK daily, they wouldn't run if I wasn't puller; and they knew I'd be N/R.

Yes, you can always choose not to play meta. The problem is, though, the majority of players choose to go with the meta, and if ANet do not change anything that meta will not change (stacking orders + 50% ias iway ownz).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kusandaa

Just showing how there ARE variations in the meta/cookie cutter itself, at one point where there's a line whether it is cookie cutter or not. For the heck of it we've tried a X/R b/p ToPK run. We had a E/R, a Mo/R, a N/R (might have had a R/Rt in there for FW duration purpose only, if not it was another E/R), rest were normal professions (N/Mo MM, N/Rt orders, Mo/X healer). We did our average time. It's cookie cutter if you think of it (we spam barrage!) but when you think again, we were running with uncommon builds. Builds that might have been laughed at, and we did our average alliance run time (an hour).

I can say with great confidence that there is NO variant of the current PvE meta, which is UB. Also, simply changing from a R/X to an X/R and using the exact, or almost, same bar shouldn't be called a variant.

upier · Jan 06, 2008, 04:59 PM // 16:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shanaeri Rynale

player rules and monster rules are different in any game(ever see how fast the computer can build stuff in C&C). You can't really compare players and mobs. You have to compare player and player builds.

The one item that distinguishes one profession from another is the primary attribute. An ele may play a 100% monk bar but it's still an ele. It has ele armor levels, an ele energy levels and the energy storage attribute.

No matter what skills it has it's still an ele with all the pros and cons of that class. If somehow I could dress Shan in ele armor, and use all ele skills would that make Shan an ele? No I'd be a draughty mesmer using ele skills.

Ursan turns the ele into something else. It may look like an ele, but it has ursan armor levels, ursan energy, and the norn rank primary attribute.

We're straying from the point tho. Ursan is negativley affecting the team builds used in the game, see the screenshot above for a prime example.

PvP thinking has nothing to do with it, it's common sense. As I said I'm, in no position to enforce my views on others but I think even the most pro Ursan advocate must acknowledge that a GW with just 1 main PvE build in elite areas is a poor state of affairs, and not a reflection of the aims of a multi proffesion, multi player game. Or maybe, in general people don't care about such things anymore, to be damned with everything else so long as one gets ones shiny statue

As Kus said - he gains the benefit of SR. Also CS triggers. So should Leadership. And ES. The others primary attributes don't trigger because the skills on the skillbar don't trigger them - eg. you aren't using any spells so FC can NOT trigger!
The primary attribute is still present that way and isn't replaced by the Norn title track.
The skill does get better without investing attribute points into it. Same way as ANY PvE only skill.

The armour and hp buff is gained as a result of using a skill. Once again - completely in tune with using ANY other skill with such a description.

The way I see it - an Ursan necro is still a necro. It just isn't using necro skills.
BUT like you established - that doesn't make it into a non-necro.

Also if you can't compare players and mobs, and you can't bring PvP rules into PvE - then what rules do we have then that would establish how insane Ursan is?

Quote:

Originally Posted by lyra_song

This whole situation makes me realize Mike Judge is right and idiocracy is sooner than he thought.....

Let me do ____________, cause i find it fun.
It's not harming your own gaming experience.
You have the same option.
Stop telling people how to play.

I love how people resort to this argument. We can insert anything in the blank space and justify anything with this.

It makes no difference if the idea is an exploit, a smart idea, or a stupid idea.

It's working as intended - thus it's not an exploit.
What gives you the privilege to define what a "stupid" or a "smart" idea is especially if it was implemented by the people that HAVE the right to define that?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Longasc

Indeed. It is a great fake argument to avoiding reasoning why something is broken or not broken.

I like biting off the heads of living chickens. People tell me it is wrong, but it is my personal choice to do so, because it is fun. Nobody is forced to do that, after all.

Define "broken" and "not broken" IN PvE.

Quote:

Originally Posted by RhanoctJocosa

Why has this gone for 14 pages? UB is a ridiculously stupid skill just because of how it functions and should be deleted from the game. The effect it has on the economy is minimal. People who play balanced builds, by PvE standards, learn a lot more than they do running Ursan. The people justifying Ursan's existance as a skill are either bad at GW or simply rely on it because they don't have the time/patience/whatever to play "proper" builds, which is understandable. Btw, the first time I saw someone asking for a R7+ Norn Ursan I found it so very, very ironic.

I am neither.
Which makes me wonder - what part of your theories is false also.

Clarissa F · Jan 06, 2008, 05:16 PM // 17:16

I agree with Shanaeri. At this point, however, you have two choices.

You can play with a guild that enjoys a balanced team and is innovative, and you can Hero/hench for most areas.

Or...you can find another game that doesn't insert "God-mode" skills for c-space gamers. You want a mature, challenging game? Age of Conan comes out in March.

Kusandaa · Jan 06, 2008, 05:18 PM // 17:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by RhanoctJocosa

Yes, you can always choose not to play meta. The problem is, though, the majority of players choose to go with the meta, and if ANet do not change anything that meta will not change (stacking orders + 50% ias iway ownz).

I can say with great confidence that there is NO variant of the current PvE meta, which is UB. Also, simply changing from a R/X to an X/R and using the exact, or almost, same bar shouldn't be called a variant.

Agreed about the meta thing. People choose to go for it because it's effective. It's just that in PvE, your enemy's build doesn't change (and THAT'S what I wanted in HM - better AI, better builds. Something challenging, and not because they had faster cast times...) so the people won't complain much. It's always the same enemies, always the same builds.

The foes WILL NOT COMPLAIN when they have had 200 million MSes cast on them.

However, I behave differently as a X/R than a R/X. I have to take care of other things - energy when I'm playing as a Rt/R since I don't have any benefit oustide zealous bowstring, maybe. Amor level on a Rt/R isn't the same, you have to be more careful. If you get hit with MS as a R/Rt, let's say, you won't take as much damage as the Rt/R who doesn't have the elemental bonus damage, and I got killed a few times trying to pull stuff like a ranger. It's part of it. Changes a bit your exp. from the typical b/p meta.

A Rt/N MM is made more for damage than a typical N/X MM - you need to have higher death magic so that the minions will live long enough to absorb damage, and not just create it, as the Rt/N is made to bomb the **** out of your enemies. But they both remain MMs, true.

And there are X/E I don't exactly wish to see out there because they don't synergize well (W/E, D/E, R/E nukers).

zwei2stein · Jan 06, 2008, 05:20 PM // 17:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

Define "broken" and "not broken" IN PvE.

Ok: "Just let me the tittle, mkkay!"
Shout: for each minute you were running threadmill, one enemy in compas range dies.

---

Okay:

Skill that alows 100% of population complete normal mode campaign is not broken.

Skill that allows 100% of population complete simple challenges with same player skill requirement as simple campaign stuff smells of broken.

Skill that allows 100% of population complete hardest challenges with same player skill requirement as normal campaign pass IS definitelly broken.

Bryant Again · Jan 06, 2008, 05:22 PM // 17:22

Quote: